Outside The Box
Outside the Box is the podcast for real estate agents who want to grow their business. Every episode provides actionable strategies that help you grow your repeat, referral, and sphere of influence business. Referrals don’t happen on accident—they happen on purpose, and we bring you insights from top agents and coaches who have mastered the art of relationship-based growth. Tune in for practical, proven tactics that will help you generate more business from the people who already know, like, and trust you!
Outside The Box
Lifelong Client Relationships: Guide to 85% Referral Business | Pamela Bull
Pamela Bull from Tennessee River Realty shares how she built a thriving real estate business where 85% of transactions come from referrals by focusing on deep client relationships rather than chasing transactions. Her philosophy centers on helping families rather than focusing on dollar amounts, creating loyal clients who enthusiastically refer her services to friends and family.
• Real estate was a longtime dream after working in her family's printing business and spending 27 years as a massage therapist
• Stays in contact with ALL past clients, not just those from the current year
• Sends monthly recipe cards which clients keep longer than educational materials
• Delivers homemade chocolate chip cookies to clients at closing
• Offers creative pop-by gifts like cookies in house-shaped boxes with personalized notes
• Conducts an annual Thanksgiving pie giveaway, distributing 250 pies to clients and community members
• Continues sending gifts to out-of-state clients who may refer local friends and family
• Uses Google Forms to organize giveaway logistics including pie preferences and pickup times
• Credits Ninja Selling philosophy for her relationship-focused approach
• Believes the biggest mistake agents make is losing contact with past clients
• Sets goals based on families served rather than financial targets
• Attributes her success to divine guidance in bringing clients into her path
"I've always said that my bottom dollar is not the same as most people's. Most people's bottom number is the dollar sign. Mine is how many families or individuals can I help per year."
Level Up Your Client Experience with BizBox 📦
Want to stand out and stay top of mind with your clients? BizBox makes it easy. Our branded moving boxes aren’t just practical – they’re a marketing tool that keeps your name in front of past clients, referral sources, and future deals.
Order your first Branded BizBox pack today and see why top agents across the country LOVE them!
👉 https://www.bizboxinc.com/
Stay Connected on Instagram 📲
Follow BizBox Inc. for behind-the-scenes content, guest insights, and actionable tips to grow your real estate business! Plus, drop us a DM and let us know what topics you want to hear next.
🔗 https://www.instagram.com/bizboxinc/
Follow the Hosts 🎙
Want more insights and strategies to grow your real estate business? Connect with us and follow along for expert tips, industry trends, and more.
Justin Armbruster – https://www.instagram.com/armbruster_jd/
Chad Armbruster – https://www.linkedin.com/in/chadaarmbruster/
My bottom dollar or my bottom number is not the same as most people's. Mine is how many families or individuals can I help flooding on them?
Chad Armbruster:Thanks for joining us on Outside the Box, where we talk through actionable strategies that help you generate more repeat referral and sphere of influence. Business Referrals don't happen by accident. They happen on purpose. For those who don't know, my name is Chad Armbruster, ceo of BizBox, and alongside me, as always, is my co-host, full-time realtor and son, justin Armbruster.
Justin Armbruster:Today we have Pamela Bull with Tennessee River Realty, joining us all the way from Knoxville, Tennessee. Pamela has been serving buyers and sellers in the Tennessee area since 2015 and sells over 80 homes a year. Pamela, thanks for joining us today.
Pamela Bull:Yes, absolutely. Thank you for the invite.
Chad Armbruster:Great, so tell us a little bit about yourself. How'd you get started in real estate?
Pamela Bull:Oh goodness, this goes a long way back back to even high school years. Getting graduating from high school was going into college and thought, ok, I want to be an interior designer or an interior decorator. So kind of had that frame in mind even back then. And life took me on a different path. My parents own a printing company, triangle Press in Mohawk. So I decided, okay, I'm just going to stay that path, family owned business, I'm just going to keep that path and just things just kind of kept changing. I got into doing I was a massage therapist for 27 years, so that was completely off course. And then I decided you know what? I've always had this passion for houses, looking at open houses on a Sunday afternoon. You know how those people are, let's just go look at this house. We're not ready to buy, but we want to go look at a house. So I decided about 10 years ago I'm just going to make this longtime dream a reality and got my license and have been full force ever since.
Chad Armbruster:That's great. So I guess, of all the things in your past were any of them. I mean, do they overlap, do they help you in real estate, or which one did the most.
Pamela Bull:They did. By being in the massage therapy world. I had tons of clients and was very successful in that career as well. So by having built those already built those relationships, it helped with getting into real estate because one of my first clients was a massage therapist and friend, or a massage client and friend, so it was just kind of seamlessly went from there.
Chad Armbruster:That's good. So, uh, what's one habit or routine? Uh, that's helped you consistently stay in front of your sphere of influence and and generate repeat and referral business.
Pamela Bull:It has to be absolutely staying in contact with them. You have to build those relationships. It's not just about okay, we're going to help this seller sell a house or this buyer buy our house, and then we're done at the end of the transaction. You have to stay in contact with them and I send out gifts at the end of the year gratitude gifts and it's not just for clients for that year, it's clients that I've had ever since I started. So it's not just who I had transactions with within that year, it's clients that I've had ever since I started. So it's not just who I had transactions with within that year. So it's staying in front of them. It's sending them gifts. It's doing pot buys three and four times a year. It's sending monthly cards. I have recently switched to sending recipe cards because I used to just send educational things. I'm like you know what. Those are getting tossed and if someone likes a recipe, that's going to stay there possibly for years, and so I send out those monthly cards that my clients really seem to enjoy.
Justin Armbruster:What's an example of a gratitude gift or a pop-by example that you do? What are you getting out?
Pamela Bull:I have done pop buys as far as this past February. I have this thing Whenever I go to the closing table I've taken my clients home baked cookies, chocolate chip cookies that I do not give the recipe out to, and they love them. So this past February I had this cute, adorable little box that looked like a house and it had little windows in it and I put these cookies, half a dozen cookies, in these boxes. It had these little pink and red bows on top of them and just dropped those off at my past client's house, as many as I can. Normally that takes about a day and a half to do. To get to the ones that are obviously I can't do out of state. As far as gratitude gifts, it's restaurants gift cards, it's for the out of state ones of people that's moved out of state. I will send them popcorn tins. So those are kind of some things that I do.
Justin Armbruster:Oh fun.
Pamela Bull:And then I also have as far as community as well as for my clients. On Monday before Thanksgiving this is now my second year of doing it I give away 250 pies, but they get to choose whether they want pumpkin pie or apple pie. I have to know in advance, and then I have to order it a week in advance and then they just come by on that Monday. They select a two-hour timeframe that they can come by and pick up the pie that they've chosen.
Justin Armbruster:Wow, so 250 pies, is that? Uh like, that's the limit that you set for yourself, or, and it's kind of first come, first serve on, you know who signs up and they're all past clients.
Pamela Bull:Yeah, 250 pies. Whoever can get their orders in first, then that's. That's what I can give away.
Justin Armbruster:Oh, awesome yeah.
Chad Armbruster:So, just out of curiosity and a side note, I mean this seems impressive to me. You're sending gifts to prior clients who are out of state, which to me I'm just simply from a dollars and cents marketing guy I'm like, well, those people can't, you know, I'm not getting those back. So I mean that's interesting. Is that just a you know, thoughtfulness type of thing, or is there well, they may move back aspect to that?
Pamela Bull:Well one. I fall in love with my clients. Something about each one of them I just really, really enjoy. But for the most part, yes, they may have moved from here, but they've made friends or they've got family that's still here, and so it may not be just them, but it may be the people that they refer out.
Justin Armbruster:Yeah, but I mean, just in talking to you for five minutes now, even if they didn't, you strike me as someone that, even if it was just a hey, this is a gift, you know you strike me as someone that even if it was just a hey, this is a gift you know you would still do it Absolutely.
Chad Armbruster:Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that is good. So what are some common mistakes that you see realtors making when?
Pamela Bull:they're trying to grow their real estate business. Oh, it's lack of staying in touch. I mean you have to. You have to stay in touch with them because if not, the next time they get ready to do a real estate transaction or the next time that they hear a friend talk about buying or selling, you're not going to be the one they remember. It's going to be whomever it is that is in front of them at the time. It may be somebody that sent a card that they've gotten in the mail. They may never have met the realtor, but if they hear it they're going to remember that card that I just got in the mail last week.
Justin Armbruster:I love that answer. I don't know if you have read Ninja Selling by Larry Kendall.
Pamela Bull:Oh yeah, been through the graduation.
Justin Armbruster:Yes, one of my favorite, not just real estate books, but just sales books in general. My favorite not just real estate books, but just sales books in general. Talking about ninja selling, he talks about how people don't buy from people that they know like and trust. They buy from people who they know like, trust and are in flow with Frequency of interaction. You have to be talking to your past clients if you expect to generate any sort of referral or repeat business. If you just did a good job but you haven't talked to them in a decade, good luck getting their business again.
Pamela Bull:And those 50 live interviews a week.
Justin Armbruster:you have to do it, you have to do it I swear by my ninja planner and it's hard to do, especially when you get busy and when you're actually in the middle of selling real estate, showing houses, putting out fires. It's hard to take the time to do it, but that is my marketing. There's no better time spent than being in front of clients.
Pamela Bull:Absolutely.
Chad Armbruster:So, pamela, is there anything unique that you do to generate referrals or new business from your database or other realtors?
Pamela Bull:Well, one unique that I don't.
Chad Armbruster:I'm sure there's realtors that do this, but my clients Before we get into that, the Outside the Box podcast is all about repeat and referral business and great realtors know the key is serving your clients At BizBox we believe your marketing should do the same.
Chad Armbruster:BizBox branded moving boxes are marketing that serves your clients when they need it most Printed on two sides, packed with valuable supplies and delivered directly to your clients. Bizboxes are permanent branding that keeps you top of mind long after the move With packages starting at just five boxes and free design setup.
Justin Armbruster:there's a solution for every budget. Visit bizboxinccom, click free setup and create unforgettable marketing in minutes.
Chad Armbruster:Stand out with BizBox, while your competitors end up in the trash. Now back to the show.
Pamela Bull:And this is not necessarily a plug for you, but I love sending out these moving boxes when I know that you all, obviously I ordered from you, but I love that and they, it's all. They catches them off guard because I don't tell them ahead of time. They're going to get them and so you know I've done the listing appointment and then within a week these boxes are sitting at their door and they're calling me up. Well, what's this? I said. Well, you might need a little help. You know getting things packed up to move, and so it's just an additional gift I want to give. So I love sending that out, but I think a lot of other realtors would benefit from it if they would do those kinds of things as well.
Chad Armbruster:Well, I appreciate that that was definitely not planned.
Justin Armbruster:We're not fishing for compliments here, but I do want to touch on that because, as someone who also sends boxes out, you do it different than how I do it. How do you do it different than I how I do it? And I'm questioning my life now as I think about how I send my biz boxes out. I always text my clients or call them and ask if they could use boxes. You know most of them it's like, yeah, they could absolutely use them. Some of them don't. But the way you do it, you just send it and it's more of a surprise and more of a it creates more of a moment than if you know they know it's coming, it's, you know they're appreciative still, but it's less of a surprise and it creates less of a value add moment. So I don't I don't think I'm going to try that. You know, just send them to all my clients. You know ones that I know could potentially use them and see what happens.
Pamela Bull:See what happens and you know most people. I will have to say I'm an exception when I move and I love to move, but when I move I've got to get those boxes unpacked. But so many people don't and you have that advertising sitting there.
Justin Armbruster:Potentially for months I've been looking at your advertisement on the boxes that they've yet to unbox I want to to piggyback and circle back to something you mentioned which I think is unique, and the pie giveaway you do. It's not a unique idea giving pies away at Thanksgiving, but I think it is unique in that you actually do it and you have a system, it sounds like, for how you do that. Can you walk us through maybe the preparation on how to get that going? If I'm an agent who has a list of past clients but I've never done a PI giveaway, what are some steps I need to know, what does it roughly cost, if you don't mind sharing, and maybe some prep work on how to do what you do?
Pamela Bull:Sure. So I send it out in social media, and as well as in an email, to all of my clients In that social media and in that email there's a link that goes to Google Forms. So in Google Forms they're filling out their names, their contact information. They're getting to select do they want the pumpkin or do they want the apple pie?
Pamela Bull:So that we have as soon as they throw it out. And then they have to also select there. Do they want to pick it up from 10 to noon, or noon to 2, or 2 to 4 or 4 to 6? So we know when they're coming to pick that up. So we collect all those forms and so we know which ones to order. We place the order they can run. The pumpkins are like $6, $7. The apples are $12 to $13. So we know ahead of time what that's going to look like. So we place the order. We pick it up then on pick them up on Sunday and then they're obviously given out on Monday.
Justin Armbruster:Awesome, and so putting it out on social media. This is this not just a past client thing, this is anybody in the community thing.
Pamela Bull:Anybody that can get to my office on Mondayay to pick up their pie. We have them. We have them.
Justin Armbruster:That will drive an hour away really we do something similar in my office, but with cinnamon rolls, and we give away cinnamon rolls and it's it's just for our past clients and whoever wants one. We send out postcards and emails, but I think there's something unique and a great idea around just putting it out on social media because at the end of the day and I'm thinking out loud here at the end of the day, you know past clients, yes, you know it's a gift to them, but from a marketing standpoint, anybody can refer to you. Yeah, and so just limiting it to your clients, I mean, if you have 250 individuals or families that are coming in to get pies, I mean that's 250 flow conversations that you could be having in a week's time, I mean that's a great idea.
Pamela Bull:Yes, yeah.
Chad Armbruster:So if you had to start over today, what would be your top priority for building a strong network?
Pamela Bull:your top priority for building a strong network? Oh gosh, again, the top thing is staying in contact, getting to know your people, getting to know everybody on as much of a personal base as they will let you or that they will allow you to. And then, because that's going to build your trust and, as we talked before, they've got to like know and trust you. So I would be building that relationship.
Justin Armbruster:It sounds like you focus on going deeper with the clients versus maybe doing marketing to grow outwards.
Pamela Bull:Absolutely. Yeah, cold calling I used to do. Do not do that anymore after I went through the ninja. Yeah, I see so ninja yeah, I see.
Chad Armbruster:So that's interesting. So if a realtor was starting over, or if you were starting over whatever, you wouldn't even start cold calling again, you would just basically forego that.
Pamela Bull:Yeah, so I would focus on the people that I know Now. Yes, you're going to still. There were still people that I got from cold calling, but not many. Most 85% of the people that I work with are referrals.
Chad Armbruster:But you wouldn't do the cold calling just for fun.
Pamela Bull:No, I'm not a no person, so it's hard for me to hear no, and so with cold calling you get that a lot.
Justin Armbruster:Yeah, I've never done cold calling and I can't say I'm excited to start.
Pamela Bull:No.
Chad Armbruster:But, to each their own, I guess. So I saw I don't know if it was the video or your website that you were advertising that 85% of your business is referral based. So I guess what's the key to turning a one-time client, you know, into a lifelong referral source?
Pamela Bull:Loving on them, staying in touch, loving on them, show them that they are, and I've always said that my bottom dollar, or my bottom number, is not the same as most people's. Most people's bottom number is the dollar sign. Mine's, not Mine is how many families or individuals can I help per year? That is what I want to see. Grow is the numbers of families, not necessarily dollars, that I'm focusing on.
Justin Armbruster:I love that of families, not necessarily dollars that I'm focusing on. I love that Just one from a mindset of how you conduct your business. We're not in it for money but we're in it to serve families. But also, I set my goals in a similar way, I don't set GCI goals or sales volume goals because I feel like that's not something I can necessarily control. I can't control, I can't, you know, control necessarily how big of the homes I sell. Sure, you can have a, you know a five, 10 year plan on moving into the luxury market, but I set family goals, I set unit goals. How many families can I serve? And you know, as I'm trying to hit my goals, I, you know I want I need five more families I can serve this year. And you know, if you serve your clients well and you're being looking out for your client's best interest, you know the money follows.
Chad Armbruster:It does, it does yes. Can you share your best referral success story and maybe what contributed to that success?
Pamela Bull:I can and I have given that some thought in the past of the best stories. If someone asked me what those would be and I have to say it has to be one that I only learned about at this last Pi giveaway and this lady that I had helped several times. We had sold her house. I helped her buy her condo and then I was able to meet her fiance and sold his lakefront home and then help them buy a house together because they were getting married. Both of them had lost their spouses and she told me whenever they came to pick up the pie she said the very first time my husband met you, I was volunteering at a soup kitchen at one of the local churches and her husband, who was dying and he was also a retired realtor. And he said I know you're going to sell our house whenever I pass away. I want you to use Pamela she. She will get your house sold, she will take care of you.
Pamela Bull:And I had only met him there at the soup kitchen that one time and she had never shared that with me and she shared that with me on whenever they came to pick up their pie and she said that's how I started using you as my realtor. And then, of course, it just led into the rest of the transactions that I was able to help with, both she and her fiance.
Justin Armbruster:That's a real tearjerker there. Did you cry when you heard that?
Pamela Bull:It really, really is. I was like oh my gosh, because I never like. I said I had never known that story. All these many years later, I had never known that until she shared that with me.
Justin Armbruster:That's got to feel good.
Chad Armbruster:It does, it, does, it does Well the other thing is I guess that's just an example that proves that what you're doing in loving on your clients is working, because you know, obviously you know, the husband I mean as a you know last dying moments or whatever basically wants to make sure that his wife is taken care of, and so he turns to pamela. Uh, so I, I don't know. I mean, that's just a perfect example of that, showing that what you're doing is working as far as kidding what a huge.
Justin Armbruster:I mean loving on your clients. That's a tough, it's a tough roi thing. You know you're loving on someone well is. You know you can't necessarily track that, you know how is this doing versus other marketing things, but stories like that, you know, show you what you're doing is making a huge impact. Yeah, that is super cool. Yeah, no, yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to add for?
Pamela Bull:I do have to say I can't take credit for my success, because God has given me every person that I get the opportunity to work with. So I have to give him credit for where I was, where I'm coming from and where I'm going.
Chad Armbruster:Oh, that's perfect. Yeah, it is obvious in the marketing stuff that we were seeing on your website and such that, yeah, faith is important to you, so that's good and we appreciate that.
Justin Armbruster:I even think in my own business, as a fellow believer, real estate is such a humbling business compared to maybe other businesses, because it's so hard to track ROI, and so it's one of those things you know when you do have a great year and you know clients are just calling you don't know where they're coming from it's, you can really give credit to the lord and that you know.
Justin Armbruster:I don't know where this is coming from and you know some something's working, but uh, being able to point above is really awesome absolutely cool, yes, well, as we wrap up our time today, we love to end with some rapid fire questions, some either or, uh, first thing that kind of comes to your mind. I'm going to hit it with you and I want you to give it to me straight, okay, okay, do you refer your clients to Zillow realtorcom or homescom to help them with their property search?
Pamela Bull:I refer them to realtorcom.
Justin Armbruster:Love it, love it. Are you an office or home office person?
Pamela Bull:Are you an?
Justin Armbruster:office or home office person Office. Instagram or Facebook Facebook. Podcast or book Podcast Audio. What's that? That's a toss up, toss up, we'll go with podcast Podcast Audio book or podcast Audio book, audio book, audio book.
Pamela Bull:What's the most impactful book?
Justin Armbruster:you've read or listened to Ninja Selling. Ninja Selling. There we go. It is a great book.
Pamela Bull:I've recommended it to not just realtors but lender partners. I know Chad's read it and it's a great book I've recommended it to not just realtors, but you know lender partners. I know Chad's read it and it's it's a great book. What is the most underrated app that you have in your phone business or personal Underrated app Landlot. Okay, what's that do Landlot? You can stand on a big property and it's going to show you your boundary lines as you walk it. Oh yeah, it's phenomenal.
Justin Armbruster:Yeah, nice, is it free? Do you have to pay for that?
Pamela Bull:It's not. It's like $99 a year.
Justin Armbruster:Love it, love it.
Pamela Bull:Love it To be standing on a vacant piece of land and someone would say, well, where's the boundary lines? Hold on, let me pull up this app.
Justin Armbruster:That is super nice Right now. I just have the county website saved on my phone and it takes forever punching in the address. It's not user-friendly on the mobile, but good to know. You said LandGlide.
Pamela Bull:LandGlide.
Justin Armbruster:Nice, all right. Finally, if a listener wanted to refer a client to you, what local areas do you serve and how could they best get a hold of you?
Pamela Bull:I serve all of East Tennessee and that covers I do with about an hour radius from my office. So that is all surrounding counties of Knoxville, tennessee, kingston Tennessee, oak Ridge, maryville, tennessee, oak Ridge, maryville, and they can reach me. The best way to reach me is on my cell phone is 865-806-2552. That can be text called whatever. Whatever is the easiest.
Justin Armbruster:Awesome, Pamela. Thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate your time.
Pamela Bull:Thank you again, absolutely.
